Why Caitiff Are The Suck



  • So, I get the “just roll with it cuz it’s part of the setting” thing 100%.

    BUT…

    I’ve never really understood why people embraced in the last 20 years would give a shit about Caitiff being Caitiff, especially non-Camarilla people. Like in the Cam, there’s the “you don’t have a clan of people to back you up, so youre easy to step on without repercussions” thing.

    But for every other sect, where the clans don’t really have a united identity, it has nevery really made sense to me that others would feel all revolted, uneasy, and judgey about them. Like imagine it being irl, and you meet a Caitiff. Would you actually give a shit, or would you be like “Oh, so youre just a Vampire, no clan bonus but no clan curse either, aite”, or something? And wouldn’t there also be that part of you that was jealous of their potential and lack of curse, even if you also imagined it might be lonely nit to have a group-identity feeling, an “I belong to this family” feeling?

    It just seems weird to me.
    I’m not protesting though. I’ll totes play along with the “You’re being rational but zero characters are rational about this thing just cuz” element of the game.
    I’m just sharing a feels because I don’t have anything better to do right now (except for the thing I should be doing that I’m avoiding).



  • I have felt and thought similarly but the rationale behind the apprehension towards Caitiff as provided by the STs does make some sense.

    If you were embraced and “brought up” in the Camarilla, you’re inundated with what amounts to be anti-Caitiff/thin-blood propaganda. You learn from your sire, your peers and your elders that something is inherently wrong with these kindred and so you probably feel compelled to do as the Roman’s do, either because you can’t be sure they are wrong or because behaving any differently will get you in trouble.

    I don’t know how the Anarchs view them as I’ve never really played or read much into their philosophy, so I can’t really argue one way or the other in that respect. However, I think for those who were embraced in the last decade, I believe the STs explained that you probably heard through the grapevine one or two things about the Caitiff and thin-bloods. Again, you don’t know that what you hear is wrong. Even if you’re a person with healthy skepticism the thought probably crosses your mind at some point that you didn’t believe vampires were a real thing before you were embraced, so what else is there that you didn’t know before? You might think, “Better to be safe than sorry.”

    Truthfully I am trying to play my character with these things in mind, but I will be the first person to admit that I find it difficult for one or more reasons. The biggest reason is that I want to be able to play with everyone and I hate screwing someone else out of RP. If there’s a thin-blood or a Caitiff in the room, theoretically they should be shunned or ignored, but it’s so difficult for me to justify bypassing viable avenues of RP when I occasionally have a hard enough time justifying my character simply existing in a scene with other people. At the same time, if I can compromise for one, why not the other?

    TL;DR: the propaganda machine is scary-efficient when it comes to casting Caitiff and thin-bloods in an unfavorable light, whether you’re Camarilla or not.



  • Because your told that there not to be trusted by your creator, and your creators creator told them the same thing. Its just pass down every generation. Don’t forget you may not like them at first but something could happen that you build a friend-enemy situation. Play it and see what happens but remember every one will look at you and judge you for doing it.



  • I feel weird about talking about this since I have very strong opinions. I’d rather keep them to myself though.



  • A few things that might help understanding and comfortability from my experience.

    1. Caitiff are actually weird. They have no family, they have no stereotype, they have no known weakness, they just are. They don’t know their mommy or daddy, they don’t know the appropriate ways to act per Sect rules until they’ve been taught, and they probably don’t know much about the Camarilla, the Unbound, the Anarchs, nor the Sabbat. So even if they want to fit in, Caitiff are always going to be weird and on the outside unless someone takes them in and teaches them at great personal risk.
    2. Caitiff and Thinblooded are an unknown. A Caitiff may have any 3 disciplines (or any 3 common disciplines on Sang) at their disposal. You don’t want to fight a Caitiff on the off chance they have Celerity, Potence, and Fortitude by sheer luck; you don’t want to look them in the eyes in case they have dominate; you just don’t know. Thinblooded may or may not have disciplines, making them even more unreliable on determining what they have, in addition to often not being able to tell what clan they are from, or just about anything else about them. Plus thinblooded can walk in the daylight, even if it is for a short time. That’s terrifying in and of itself.
    3. Thinblooded are dangerous. Thinblooded are dangerous beyond the fact they are an unknown; they are dangerous because, more than any other vampire, they want to diablerize. Through diablerie they can gain a clan and disappear into the ranks of that clan with all the benefits and problems that comes with… and you are certain they don’t want any soul, they want your soul. Why? Because why wouldn’t they?
      In addition to this, Thinblooded have long been a sign of Gehenna. The book of Cain suggests that the rise of the thinblooded will signal the beginning of the end or be the end, depending on who you talk to. This terrifies elders who want to live forever and know their soul is damned to hell, but the elders have kept much (maybe too much) of that information to themselves, and now most of the ancillae only know that the Caitiff are bad and scary.
    4. Indoctrination. This one has already been touched on some, but from the elders, to the ancilae, to neonates, to welps, the wrongness of Caitiff and Thinblooded has been driven in. It is also critical to note that there are a lot of Anarchs that hail directly from the Camarilla, either by leaving it, or by only a generation or two. This means the stigma has likely stuck around even in the Anarchs. The unbound are generally less educated than the prevailing members of the Anarchs or Camarilla, and so only have to go on what they have been told before being unceremoniously kicked out of their home.
    5. As a player. As a player, the complications and difficulties of playing a thinblooded were communicated to me and I accepted them as part of the challenge. While I cannot speak for the others playing the thinblooded or Caitiff characters, I believe the shunning is a part of the experience and certainly hold no player responsible for my character getting shunned by other characters. That separation of IC and OOC is critical and helps everyone play their characters better to create a more involved story.

    One additional note about the information above, your character may not be aware of some or all of these reasons. As always, the STs are the final arbiters of what your character knows from lores and backgrounds. This is just my two cents and how I think of the “problem” of Caitiff and Thinblooded vampires.


  • Unbound

    One thing I wanted to add is that mechanically Caitiffs have the suspect flaw as a bane. As a reminder:
    Flaw: (•) Suspect. You’re not good with this sect at all. You weaseled out of a boon, broke an oath, or did something similar. You can try to stay out of sight and out of mind, but unless you somehow make amends, you suffer a two-dice penalty to all Social tests involving the offended faction.

    Caitiff have a bane just like any other clans yes it is a social one so it is mostly conveyed trough rp like the old Toredor flaw still I don’t think it would be fair for the Caitiff player or other players to ignore their bane when other clans do not have that luxury.

    That being said that does not mean that Caitiff are disliked as much as the Thin-blood of even disliked at all. They are just looked down upon. Their words meaning little.
    They are orphans in a society where family and by family I mean blood ties. Yes blood also means a lot if you were not aware of that. 😛
    Even in Anarch and Sabbat they are not treated as equal despite the pretense. You won’t find a lot (if at all) of Caitiff in important position in those sects. The glass ceiling is real.

    But again that does not mean Caitiff should be treated the same as Thin-Blood. They are still true vampire afterall and still worthy of some respect if little.
    And while I can see a Caitiff eventually joining a Coterie the task seems far harder for the semi-kindreds… well except if they take a short cut that is. 🙂


  • Unbound

    @isadorbg said in Why Caitiff Are The Suck:

    joining a Coterie the task seems far harder for the semi-kindreds… well except if they take a short cut that is.

    Even then, they’d just swap from being a thin-blood to being a known diablerist. Not sure if that’s really an improvement in terms of social acceptance.



  • @isadorbg said in Why Caitiff Are The Suck:

    One thing I wanted to add is that mechanically Caitiffs have the suspect flaw as a bane. As a reminder:
    Flaw: (•) Suspect. You’re not good with this sect at all. You weaseled out of a boon, broke an oath, or did something similar. You can try to stay out of sight and out of mind, but unless you somehow make amends, you suffer a two-dice penalty to all Social tests involving the offended faction.

    Caitiff have a bane just like any other clans yes it is a social one so it is mostly conveyed trough rp like the old Toredor flaw still I don’t think it would be fair for the Caitiff player or other players to ignore their bane when other clans do not have that luxury.

    Considering the fact that we almost never roll social dice, this flaw penalty seems irrelevant mechanically. It’s purely RP, which means that it’s the responsibility of other players to play out and therefore doesn’t compare well to the Toreador bane. The STs may remind us that Caitiff and thin-blood are bad news bears, but I don’t think any of the current Caitiff/thin-blood players are being asked to roll secret social dice when interacting with the rest of us, compared to Toreador players who will probably be penalized if they’re in less than aesthetic surroundings when attempting to act.

    That’s just my opinion, though!


  • Unbound

    Yes. Indeed.

    For the thin-blood there’s some legends that some of those vile being can radically change apparence on a whim and even that some kindreds can hide diablerie… But who knows ? What your back!



  • I think lumping the Caitiff in with the ThinBloods is really unfair.

    Caitiff are full vampires. They just don’t have a family. That’s it.

    ThinBloods CAN become full vampires but they need to eat yo face.

    So for me, there’s a huge difference between “Oh you have no family” :: snubs cause you’re a dirty orphan :: vs… “OMFG THIS GUY WANTS TO DRINK MY SOUL”

    As for the “suspect” flaw… good thing we’re not playing Camarilla here. 🙂 Also, who the hell are you calling weird? Your mum’s weird!



  • @duh said in Why Caitiff Are The Suck:

    So for me, there’s a huge difference between “Oh you have no family” :: snubs cause you’re a dirty orphan :: vs… "OMFG THIS GUY WANTS TO DRINK MY SOUL"
    Rude.
    But really though, I think that is a very important distinction Duh. Good call on that.



  • @duh I know there is a difference so I apologize if it seemed like I was saying the treatment should be the same. I was just being lazy and talking about them both at the same time!

    I happily accept Reznor into my life. 😚


  • Unbound

    I agree there is a big difference between thinblood and Caitiffs.

    The way the bane is worded for Caitiff tough it is pretty clear that it applies to all kindred. 😉
    Pretty sure they can’t get rid of it either unlike the normal flaw.

    For another metaphor. If Kindreds are nobility, Caitiff are the bastards. If you don’t know what that means Game of throne did a okay job representing them.

    Thin-bloods are the disabled in the nobility. They are hated and shunned by everyone.



  • This one is an odd one because yeah Caitiff have a bane like all other clans but as pointed out it really is up to the players to play that out RP wise.

    So it sucks for a social game but if people ignore that bane to be ‘nice’ and ‘inclusive’ which is how you want to be in a game you’re basically taking the flaw away from the Caitiff really.

    Since I have to roll my frenzy dice as a Brujah, if players ignore the Caitiff bane then they just have no flaw really. So if in a scene you are ignoring the Caitiff flaw to be ‘inclusive’ but are egging on a Brujah in the same scene you’re being extremely unfair to one player over the other.



  • Actually, it specifies “this sect” rather than “all kindred.” It might be pedantic to point that out but if we’re talking about clarity, it clearly applies to a sect, of which none of us are a part. Unless “Unbound” counts.


  • Unbound

    @jess said in Why Caitiff Are The Suck:

    Actually, it specifies “this sect” rather than “all kindred.” It might be pedantic to point that out but if we’re talking about clarity, it clearly applies to a sect, of which none of us are a part. Unless “Unbound” counts.

    The normal flaw yes but that’s what the Catiff bane says:

    Caitiff characters begin with the
    Suspect (•) Flaw and you may not
    purchase positive Status for them
    during character creation. The Storyteller may always impose a one
    or two dice penalty on Social tests
    against fellow Kindred who know
    they are Caitiff, regardless of their
    eventual Status.

    So it is heavily implied that Caitiff suffers that flaw with every kindred and not just from one arbitrary sect of their choosing like the regular flaw.



  • Here’s some shit that I found interesting. Ready? From the V5 book itself:

    Not all Kindred inherit the curse of one of the 13. Some don’t care what their lineage is. Certain bloodlines of kindred have always been clanless, and sometimes childer of the clans are just born different. They’re often discarded, exiled, or choose to distance
    themselves from the clans that despise them. Pure vampires, the Caitiff make up for what they lose in respect and pedigree by flexible blood and the absence of a crippling bane. Proud or ashamed of their clanless nature as they may be, these creatures have no family and represents vampirism at its purest and most individualistic.

    Who Are the Caitiff?

    Many Kindred incorrectly assume all Caitiff are created accidentally, that the clanless target no mortals for the Embrace. This view is outdated and ignorant. These nights, the clanless are increasingly becoming a force to be reckoned with. Though more disparate, individualistic, and chaotic than their cousins, they are all survivors, and they have begun to gather, build alliances, and make childer of their own. The Caitiff who seek out mortals to perform the Embrace generally target the strong-willed and those used to uncommon hardship. A Caitiff’s position in the hierarchy of Kindred is at the bottom, just above
    the thin-blooded who should not have been born at all, and they are forced to fight for their place or fall and be forgotten. The Caitiff see little point in Embracing mortals unlikely to make it through the night on their own.
    … … …

    As far as that bane thing… the Storyteller MAY MAY MAY MAY MAY always impose dice penalties on social tests. You also kinda glossed over the fact that the bane is really the cost of disciplines being higher.

    Also… legit, guys… This is what the book starts with, if we’re gonna be nit picky and just pick the parts we want to so that our argument is the correct one:
    Untouched by the Antediluvians, the Caitiff share no common bane.

    Then it say they start with “suspect” which means that they cannot purchase status (SECT stuff). And part of the Caitiff “suspect flaw” is that the ST MAY impose the dice penalty. They MAY not, however.

    Now let’s dissect the suspect flaw, which is under the Status heading:

    Flaw: (•) Suspect. You’re not good with this sect at all. You weaseled out of a boon, broke an oath, or did something similar. You can try to stay out of sight and out of mind, but unless you somehow make amends, you suffer a two-dice penalty to all Social tests involving the offended faction.

    It’s legit against a faction or the sect that “you offended” – so again if it’s not part of a sect… I will leave the rest unsaid.



  • Brief clarifiation:

    I was only asking about Caitiff.
    Not Thin-blooded.



  • @aarkon - cause once again… Caitiff get penalized by the cost of disciplines being higher - that’s always been the way. Social stigma of being an orphan… well, that happens in real life too, but treating them like complete and utter garbage cause the Brujah have to roll frenzy doesn’t really add up to me.



  • I defer to the actual Caitiff in this instance!