Question re: The Ministry
Tone = Cooperative and easy-going person wants to get it right and therefore asks genuine question cuz they don’t know the answer. Best read in a tge voice of Pinky from “Pinky & tge Brain.” Asking publicly for benefit of others cuz it deals with group policy thingies.
Cuz I did that thing I do where I accidentally overthink something until I’m caugh in a paradox and can’t see any way out.
So the Ministry.
I know this much from the page and the book and the announcement about how we should react to them and perceive them:
- We don’t know about them.
- They’re one of the three Pillar/Backbone clans of the Anarchs.
- We have 1 of them.
- They permeate the Movement.
- They are spiritual guides and we should trust them for that role. They’re like the heart or soul of the Anarchs.
- They are corrupters or vice lords.
- We saw the 1 do [that one thing at that one event].
- The 1 tends to always give [this one kind of advice or opinion].
Most of those points seem to directly contradict at least one other on the list. So the result is that I don’t know how to RP about them in a way that buys into and cooperates with the game world and game that y’all are building here.
Like I wanna get this right.
[[Engage Pinky Voice]]. I just feel like whether I trust them or don’t trust them I’m doing it wrong, for example. If I think of going to them for spiritual advice or stay away from that, I feel like either way I’m not buying into the game properly. I should cuz they’re the soul. I should not cuz they’re vice lords who always say [xx]. Same if I treat them like they are a Pillar or an Outlier. A Pillar of 1, whose clan is sewn into the fabric of the Unbound? A Pillar no one knows about? We don’t know about them but we know they’re spiritual guides and the soul of the Movement -and- vice lords? Spiritual guides who always say and do [that one kind of thing, which would give anyone XX opinion of their advice]?
I would like to be a good player and get this right. Please advise.
Actually, this is a good post and I have had those questions as well. Answer will be forthcoming soon!
Fistbump of wubs.
The corrupters and vice lords knowledge comes with higher lores. As the post on the announcement forum, the younger members of the Movement don’t really know much about them other than that they are of the Ministry. The Followers of Set information is for older members of movement and the older neonates of the Camarilla and older.
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Is it assumed that most characters who spent years with the Tower never heard mention of the Followers of Set? I guess that’s the hard part to reconcile, figuring there’d at least be whispers even if they knew nothing about them.
So everything under the Ministry section, you know. Everything under Followers of Set, you are unaware of or have very mild suspicion of ie, you saw Lane get everyone high at the party, but that could just be his thing! Who knows?! What he did was not different than a Toreador offering the same thing at parties.
All of you are young neonate. You MIGHT have 1 dot in the lore. The real history falls under higher lore levels. You have spent some years, but in the life of a vampire you have existed for a blink of an eye.
The following is opinion only and presented for the purposes of discussion.
There really is not a universal answer as your knowledge about them is going to be based on your character’s experience. Someone with Anarch Lore would know more about them and their place as spiritual leaders within Anarch society, while someone with Camarilla Lore wouldn’t really know about them at all since they wouldn’t really have interacted with them.
As the wiki states “To the older neonates and older of the Camarilla and the ancillae and elders of the Movement, The Ministry will always be what they once were: The Followers of Set (see below). The Tower claims the rebranding of their name does not fool them. The older Licks of the Movement are a bit more cautious around them than the neonates, but they still recognize their usefulness.” All of us are playing Childer characters so none of us would fall into the category of Kindred or Licks that would know of them as corrupter of vice lords from my understanding.
Neither the Anarch or Camarilla book specifically gives a date of when the Ministry joined the Movement, so it’s open to interpretation by the STs. The meta game has been modified to match the story as told by them, so the following is speculation and not necessarily true in game. The Cam book indicates that it happened after the Brujah left and the Tremere chantry was hit by the 2nd Inquisition. IIRC those events in take place in 2012 and 2008 respectively. Both Banu Haqim and The Ministry sought out the Camarilla for membership. The meetings occurred on the same night, The Ministry’s meeting blew up, literally, killing the Justicars in attendance. The Anarch book places the meeting at a hotel in Paris and describes the bombing as the worst terrorist attack ins 9/11. The closest real world terrorist attack of that magnitude, would be the attacks in November of 2015. This could conceivably put them joining the Movement if that is the case. That being said, the STs could easily say there was a fictional bombing or modify one that occurred earlier (such as the 2004 Indonesian embassy bombing) to fit the narrative.
From the Ministry Section which covers what we know (empphasis added):
“The Ministry is one of the three pillar clans of the Anarch Movement (the others being Brujah and Gangrel). In Lick society, they serve a dual purpose. On one hand they are the ones most willing to get their hands dirty with drugs, vessels, and anything else on the desperate side of the tracks. On the other, they are the spiritual core of the Movement. Those that have struggled with their Beast often seek them out in order to come to an understanding of the actions they have made while not in control. This dichotomy does not pass by the Ministry. They willingly dance with the devil and at the same time preach their own version of spiritual purity. Though some Licks consider them hypocrites for this mixed message, the Ministers claim the role of martyrs. They are willing to take on sin so that others need not to, for a price of course, so there will be plausible deniability. Most licks accept this explanation, as the Minister’s usefulness outweighs the lingering suspicion.”
When I read this, it heightens the tension of my “I don’t know how to feel” experience. Like it contains the vice lord and the hypocritical message and the purity and the “you pay us to take your sin away, as if that isn’t totally just us paying them for us to lose humanity right away by deciding not to feel guilty for doing a bad.” And when I add everything Lane has said snd done, it’s like… not just the party, but the stuff he says in person and in the Book…
I totally get “This is the propaganda you’ve been fed, and your character believes it” aspect here. My intent is to figure out what the propaganda is that we should believe.
- Is it that I’ve been given the image that they legit really are taking our sins onto themselves like a Sin Eater, and that my character has been taught to believe that like the Humanity stains and guilt really are transfering over? Like where my character actually thinks they can hold onto her own humanity longer by going to them? Cuz if she thinks that process for real works (cuz cainite magic that’s how), then it resolves the tension. Then it’s like, “Oh, of course they go into drugs and prostitution and human trafficking (in the Ministry paragraph we know), cuz they’re taking on the sins of ithers to free the world of its stains. So they have to dive into the darkness in order to Minister to it.” Like OOC, there are plenty of myths, religions, and philosophies thst go super well with that.
- Or is it thst they preach moral freedom, the philosophy that when we put morality on our actiins, we’re asking them to carry a cosmological weight that doesn’t belong to them? Cuz there’s plenty of philosophical and religious room fir that too. They’d basically be saying “there is no polution, no defilement, and no evil. True liberation consists of seeine the Infinite beauty of every being snd every moment and every experience, no matter how pleasant or horrifying (or whatever) it is.” Cuz then the drugs and hooked would also make sense. They’d be diving into the muck to show that everything us always already perfect, that enlightenment looks like kissing a leper fI’ll on the lips and feeling no revilement. In this sense they’d be preaching infinite compassion alongside infinite moral freedom.
Like if those are what they preach, chances are they’d embrace me, oddly enough.
But both of those are predicated on us knowing both the “they do hookers and drugs” -and- the “they take your sins away” things.
Is it like those mebe?
Or what is the propaganda we’ve swallowed?
((Dang. Messed up the format. Didn’t mean for that middle sentence to be italicized. Oops.))
Once again, I’m going to start off by saying this is opinion and how I’ve interpreted what is in the book.
First to touch on my previous post, your character would not know of the event surrounding The Ministry joining the Movement. Remember, we’re all playing Childer here. Your character if embraced already when it happened would just know this new clan was joining and not know the why. Characters embraced into the movement afterwards would not think to ask why they held their position within the Anarchs and wouldn’t question it. Camarilla kindred would be unlikely to know of them whether embraced before or after more than maybe being told not to trust them.
Basically in character if don’t have Ministry or Anarch lore, other than the possible vague mention to not trust them, you wouldn’t know more than the what your character learns in character.
If you have Anarch lore, you’d know a little more, but it’s still going to be based on your interactions with them. Just like not every Toreador is an artist, not every Brujah is a gang banger, or every Ventrue is a business mogul, each member of the Ministry approaches it their own way. One member may focus on being able to supply vessels, while another may preach to the nature of the vampiric condition, and yet another may provide a safe space to indulge in hedonistic acts. These certainly aren’t things that The Ministry has a monopoly on, but they sure as hell do it better as a clan than any others do.
…, each member of the Ministry approaches it their own way. One member may focus on being able to supply vessels, while another may preach to the nature of the vampiric condition, and yet another may provide a safe space to indulge in hedonistic acts. These certainly aren’t things that The Ministry has a monopoly on, but they sure as hell do it better as a clan than any others do.
In your interpretation, who has access to that stereotype? Just that much. Only the Anarch 2 or Ministry 1 Lores? Or Kindred Lore 1 also?
Cuz like at Kindred 1, you at least know the other stereotypes you mentioned that I shouldn’t have deleted already:
Toreador = Artist
Ventrue = Bidniss
Tremere = Harry Potter but mean
Brujah = Angry and Violent.
At Kindred Lore 1, is it only
Ministry = Pillar of Anarchs but that’s all you know is that they’re a pillar somehow, so just go by what you’ve seen of Lane which is very focused in a particular direction,
While Anarch Lore 1 grants you access to
Ministry = Pillar who do things like hedonism, preaching, vessels, drugs, and prostitution, but the only example you know of is your experience of Lane which is very focused in a particular direction?
But that any hint of why or theology requires Ministry Lore 1?
Is that congruent with your interpretation? Genuine asking.
It’s a long watch, but I think this gives a good sense of what they might know.