Words of Wisdom to reflect and comment on

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Words of Wisdom to reflect and comment on

Postby Malevolence » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:31 pm

Matthew Webb (Primal)
5 hrs ยท
Tyler Durden Voice: "Your character is not your sheet; your character is not how much XP you have; your character is not its combat pools; Your character is not the contents of its background. Your character is not your fucking costume. Your character is the stories it makes and it helps other people make. Your character is how it makes others feel about the game."

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Re: Words of Wisdom to reflect and comment on

Postby Jamestoo » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:35 pm

My comment is "Word."
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Re: Words of Wisdom to reflect and comment on

Postby Bek » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:52 am

Building on what Stef has posted,

One of my favorite memes to do with the analysis of media is "cool motive; still murder" because it acknowledges that you can find monstrous characters and their backstories/motives interesting without being an apologist or otherwise denying the monstrousness. This should be frequently applied to VtM characters. It is not bad at all to like monstrous characters. They can be incredibly fun to play as and with.

They are monsters. They can (read: should) be doing truly monstrous things as is their nature and not trying to be friends. Allies are useful, friends mean you are too trusting and easily taken advantage of. Characters can and do die over trusting the wrong people. The paranoia and horror of clinging to shreds of humanity while living with these destructive, power-grabbing urges - around others with the same urges - is a major theme in the game and should be played more.

I haven't seen it played that often recently, to be honest. You do not have to be "nice" IC, and in fact, generally shouldn't. You can totally be polite, cordial, whatever if that's appropriate for your character and the situation. That's not the same as nice. You can have perfect manners and still be a bloodthirsty (see what I did there), cutthroat, and downright terrifying kindred just fine.

Your friends OOC should still be your friends OOC even after you utterly wreck their shit in game. You are both playing a horror game with notoriously backstabby monsters. If friendships OOC are damaged from purely valid IC actions, someone did not understand the game.

Your characters are tools. They are disposable. You can always make another one and the work you put in, and that staff put in for approvals, plotting and spends, will always be worth it so long as your character and play benefited the story (even with "negative" actions) and others' and your own enjoyment.

Don't be afraid to get involved and "play to lose". Never be afraid to scheme and be the villain, just also don't get caught. Learn subtlety. Utilize chambers. Be Cunning! Be careful as you read other's emotes and give them ALL due respect and thought before responding. Even your baby neonate can be a character that players will look on with fond memories (and, spoiler, it won't be for their "niceness") for years to come.

We're all here because we love the game and that is a truly special thing.
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Also Plays: Anthony (Malkavian Ancilla), Kenneth (Ventrue), Jamal (Nosferatu Fledgling)
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Re: Words of Wisdom to reflect and comment on

Postby Jamestoo » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:37 am

Honest question:

Does the word "nice" here refer only to being like a legit good person, or does also include just pretending to be a good person?
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Re: Words of Wisdom to reflect and comment on

Postby Scarecrow » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:26 am

I don't think any of us are legitimately 'nice' people in character. We're blood-sucking killers, after all.

Now, we may be affable, cultured, courteous, polite - any of a number of things. The Ventrue will bow and kiss your hand and call you by your formal name and have exquisite manners - and screw you over just as fast and hard as anyone else.

People may project a certain image perhaps by personal preference - 'nice' is easy and doesn't cause problems for when you don't feel like more issues. It lulls people into complacency. It may even be fun - other people (even bloodthirsty killers just like us) can be fun to be around.

Is this all that different than in real life? I've known plenty of co-workers who were always quite nice...and would slit your throat to get that promotion ahead of you. 'Nice' is absolutely fine - right until it bumps up into self-interest. And that doesn't mean a person suddenly turns into a Machiavellian nightmare. It means they just keep on doing as they do, holding the door open for you as you approach, giving you a breezy wave when passing by...even as they whistle a happy tune as they act out their self-interests (at your expense).

This could even arch into the philosophical, where the "Philosophy of Greed" is a real (and surprisingly understandable) mentality. The idea is that EVERYONE will operate in their own best interests...and that sometimes means compromising or giving up something to get something more worthwhile that they couldn't attain on their own. The 18th century philosopher Mandeville once said, "Private vices yield public benefits."

Or leap ahead to the 1949 classic, "The Third Man", where the charming-but-loathesome Harry Lime (played by Orson Welles), said:

"...in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock."

There can be a fine line between Charisma and Manipulation. You can be oh-so-eager to please; loyal and obedient, or you can be "'Unctious 'eep" (Uriah Heep, from "David Copperfield"). You can also be a jerk and an asshole, yet still appreciated for being dependable and a straight-shooter.
Mose Martin | Nosferatu | Status: 2 | Camarilla | Deputy | Appearance: 1/0 | Charisma: 2 | Intimidation 3 | Leadership 1
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Re: Words of Wisdom to reflect and comment on

Postby Bek » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:02 am

Y'all completely missed my point on "niceness". I already spelled it out here.

You can totally be polite, cordial, whatever if that's appropriate for your character and the situation. That's not the same as nice. You can have perfect manners and still be a bloodthirsty (see what I did there), cutthroat, and downright terrifying kindred just fine.


It's when you get to the point of "I would never screw over/hurt X because we're BFFs" or assume the reverse is true, etc, that it is a problem. There is no problem with being appropriately cooperative and personable or manipulating people into cooperating with you. There IS a problem when it gets in the way of RPing the nature of vampires.
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Viola, Nosferatu Primogen
Camarila Status: 4 | + Capable, PRAISED BY PRAXIS | - Caustic, SUSPICIOUS
Clan Status: Primogen
Charisma: 2 | Appearance: 1 (masked) | Intimidation: 2 | Leadership: 2

Also Plays: Anthony (Malkavian Ancilla), Kenneth (Ventrue), Jamal (Nosferatu Fledgling)
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Re: Words of Wisdom to reflect and comment on

Postby Jamestoo » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:14 pm

Win. 'Swhat I thight I was reading but wanted to triple confirm.
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