Sabbat Clan Personality vs Mass Embraces

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Sabbat Clan Personality vs Mass Embraces

Unread postby Jamestoo » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:34 am

Something's always bothered me about Sabbat clan/bloodline personalities.

Given the practice of mass embraces and shovel head parties, and given that the Sabbat as a whole hates mortals too much (you know what I mean) to sit and observe any mortal lon enough to see if they're "worthy," how can *any* clan or bloodline in the Sabbat have any kind of stereotype or preference?

Shouldn't they all (except the hella rare ones) just be random-ass people who just happen to share a set of disciplines and a curse? Shouldn't it just be like "well, these are the people who happened to survive the mass embrace?"

Especially for the ones with the greatest numbers, like the Tzimisce, La Sombra, and Brujah Antitribu. Shouldn't 90% of them be totally random people?
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Re: Sabbat Clan Personality vs Mass Embraces

Unread postby isadorbg » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:26 am

As far as I know shovel heads are not considered "True Sabbat" that is they are just meat shields they enjoy none of the rights or the privileges of being part of the Sabbat.
Now of course those who survives long enough may become true Sabbats members, the Sabbat has this weird meritocracy to it. What does not kill you makes you stronger is a motto that fit the sect well.

As for how the clans keep their personality well the Sabbat does not only recruit trough shovelheads altough that's probably what the Camarilla will see the most when meeting Sabbats.
Many of the organised clan do actually carefully recruit their members just like the patricians clans in the Camarilla with long formative years when embraced that is when they want to recruit long term so they life expentency is much higher than your typical shovelheads who rarely survives a few days.

Afterall for those that survives the initial shock comes the real difficulties: The very low humanity after going on a rampage and the inevitable wassail if some actual Sabbat don't deem them worty of being initiated in a path that is if they succeed as it is not supposed to be easy or they just die later as the life of a shovelheads in a conflict zone is not the best shot one can get at immortality.

On Brujah however it's not like Brujah are famous for embracing pretty much anybody whatever their factions so heh nothing new.
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Re: Sabbat Clan Personality vs Mass Embraces

Unread postby isadorbg » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:31 am

By the way those who do survive and get succesfully initiated into path are already not too far from their other clansmate and many are eager to learn their ancestors ways afterall it runs into the blood so a metamorphosist Tzimice is not really a rarity. ;)

But if I remember only Lasombras, Assamite AT and Salubri AT have a strong sense of kinship in the Sabbat the others are far more interested in their packs.
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Re: Sabbat Clan Personality vs Mass Embraces

Unread postby Jamestoo » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:42 pm

That distinction between the True Sabbat and the shovel heads is a specifically 3rd edition Sabbat change, and is one that Sanguinus has rejected. On here, the shovel party *is* a creation rite, and any who go through it and survive are considered full members.

So the question comes back.
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Re: Sabbat Clan Personality vs Mass Embraces

Unread postby Zahana » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:19 pm

Jamestoo wrote:That distinction between the True Sabbat and the shovel heads is a specifically 3rd edition Sabbat change, and is one that Sanguinus has rejected. On here, the shovel party *is* a creation rite, and any who go through it and survive are considered full members.

So the question comes back.

I thought Sanguinus went by VtM 20

Vtm20 page 508 wrote: Most Sabbat use the “shovelhead method” only in times of war. This infamous method consists of collecting a number of victims, Embracing them with the tiniest quantity of blood possible, bashing them over the head with a shovel (to knock them unconscious before they frenzy), and burying them in a mass grave. The newly Embraced Cainites rouse quickly, and they must dig themselves out of the grave to sate their frenzy, often at the expense of the weaker vampires entombed with them. This method is simple, relatively quick, and quite effective at stripping victims of their Humanity. In any event, vampires created this way have not actually received their Creation Rites. In fact, the Sabbat does not even consider them vampires yet, and it has little reservation against throwing legions of these frenzied horrors against their foes.
The Creation Rites themselves are much more serious, marking the passage from nonentity into True Sabbat. After the Embrace, the new vampire is eligible for the Creation Rites only after he has demonstrated his worth to the Sect — perhaps the very night of his Embrace, perhaps years afterward. The ritus itself is quite simple — the priest merely touches a flaming brand to the initiate’s head and leads him in an oath of allegiance...
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Re: Sabbat Clan Personality vs Mass Embraces

Unread postby freedomischaos » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:25 am

We do by and large go by V20 rules and working on bringing a lot of our lore and meta into line with what is in v20 such as the Gangrel being independent now.

However, that's pretty much correct in how the shovel heads are treated. They -might- eventually join a sect being it Camarilla or Sabbat. It really depends on if any survive and if any particular person feels inclined to take them in. Caitiff, Brujah, and Nosferatu (for the ones that are obviously Nosferatu shovelheads only) being among the primary possibilities though if a particular shovel head has an interesting appearance a Toreador might or if a Ventrue knows one is a leader in his mortal, they might be given a life or if they are seeking a rook (or a Sabbat paladin). Blood bonds would likely be required and of course, it would be a very unique and strange thing. Tremere would only want them for research parts.

It should be noted that this is not necessarily a "good thing" that they adopted or rescued wayward people. It can be repurposed as a way to lessen the massive death of a dozen people and reduce the Masquerade breach that it causes by showing that fewer people "died" during the event. It can also be used as a method of gaining vampires for the explicit purpose of blood bonding them to create vampiric retainers, assassins and the like.

However, the most common method for either sect for dealing with shovelheads that survive would be to kill them when the purpose is done. They are only weapons after all. Few weapons are ever granted names.


Oh and in most takes (or at least ours), the Lasombra and Tzimisce almost never participate in the mass embrace. They are the royal clans of the Sabbat and that task is best taken with lesser blood.
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Re: Sabbat Clan Personality vs Mass Embraces

Unread postby Jamestoo » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:51 am

Oh ok, nifty.
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